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Hi Richie.
Is it mandatory to learn and use the heptatonic system to enjoy the course?
I’ve been using the CAGED system (5 positions) for many, many years and I have perfect mastery of scales and arpeggios using 5 positions system… thanks!Hi Jones,
The Heptatonic System is simply the Caged System plus 2 added fingerings conventionally not included. What I find hard to understand is why after mastering the 5 fingerings of the CAGED, anyone would have a problem learning an additional 2 which are only going to open up more possibilities?
Whether or not you can enjoy the course without the additional fingerings, I feel shouldn’t be your main concern. Instead, I think maybe the question should be whether or not you can benefit from it? I surely think so, is my answer! However, I will leave it to others who may read this post to give their unbiased opinion.
Having said all of this, please be aware that many great jazz guitarists who use the CAGED system actually end up using all 7 fingerings. I’ve talked to several and many consider Patterns 2 and 3 as 2 variations of the “G” in the CAGED system, and Patterns 5 and 6 as 2 variations for the “C”. Most just keep calling it CAGED.
Another factor that you should take into consideration is the fact that the main purpose of the Heptatonic System, unlike the CAGED, is to view the relationship of fingerings to the 7 chords that make up any tonality. You might not understand this too well in the beginning, but if you get through the course, by the time you are playing over more complex progressions, it will make more sense. For instance, for improvisation the Heptatonic will give you many logical options to map out the fretboard and guide you in selecting fingerings that are going to seamlessly get you through any given progression. Yes, this can be done with the 5 fingerings also included in CAGED, but you will find certain gaps that are easily resolved with the additional 2.I hope I’ve somewhat answered your question. I guess time will tell. 🙂
Hi Richie. I just watched your “C-A-G-E-D and Two Other Scale Fingering Systems Compared” YouTube video. Obviously, one of the systems compared was the Heptatonic System, which I have been involved in learning now for about four years.
I began to use major-scale-oriented patterns instead of just using pentatonic patterns while playing guitar in public almost sixty years ago. I was not really playing any jazz tunes in public at that time, in fact, my next two bands were a blues band and rock band. I did have a close friend who played jazz saxophone, and we often jammed together. I liked the way the major scale notes sounded, especially when playing in the minor modes, and I very gradually began to move away from playing only pentatonic solos.
I eventually began to play some jazz. I was even in a beginner’s jazz band that was associated with the University of California at Davis. In 2011 I began a seven-year-long, once-per-week gig with a band that played some jazz tunes every Wednesday evening at a small Hotel in Amador City, California.
Flash forward a few years. At 77 years old, and I am extremely lazy. I really need to practice considerably more, especially given that I am no longer in a band of any kind; however, I am beginning to play your mixolydian-mode-based blues etudes using three of the seven heptatonic patterns. I think that learning to use these heptatonic patterns is improving my playing. I gather that there would be much more improvement possible, should I get back into practicing in a serious way. By the way, I enjoyed watching the video.
Regards, Duncan
Hi Richie!
I also watched your YouTube video with great interest, in which you compare CAGED, 3NPS, and heptatonic fingerings and outline their respective advantages and disadvantages. The arguments are presented very clearly, and I find your reasoning for your preferred approach very convincing. I’ve also read the forum post explaining that this concept essentially represents an extension of CAGED, and I can follow that explanation very well.
That said, since I’ve only recently succeeded in mapping the fretboard—intervals, scales, chords, arpeggios, and inversions—through working with the “pure” CAGED system, I still experience this primarily as a theoretical understanding of fretboard geometry rather than as fluent practical application. Because of that, I find it somewhat challenging to learn the new fingerings without directly relating them to their corresponding CAGED shapes.
For this reason, I really appreciate both the pacing of the modules and the strong focus on the blues. This approach helps me gradually expand my perspective on the fretboard through new fingering options, while also addressing additional aspects such as playing more consciously in positions. With CAGED, one often moves between positions, whereas these approaches seem to encourage briefly extending beyond a position rather than shifting it entirely.
I also play a lot “out of chords,” and I tend to relate each new heptatonic fingering I learn back to chord shapes. That is indeed the intended idea, isn’t it? The familiar fingerings are not meant to be replaced by the new ones, but rather expanded and complemented by them.
Finally, a question from a jazz beginner’s perspective: for now, I’m continuing to work on my repertoire in other styles. Since I’m still in the process of immersing myself in jazz, my plan is to approach the style gradually through listening and through the instruction here over the coming year, before deliberately building a jazz-specific repertoire. Would you consider this a sensible approach?
Tony,
Glad to hear you have a clear understanding of the heptatonic system! As far as your question regarding repertoire, whatever you do on your own outside of jazz is your prerogative, however I believe trying to get into jazz without gradually learning its repertoire is like trying to learn a new language without attempting to speak it. And jazz is a language!For now, in terms of repertoire, you can focus on mastering all the jazz blues progressions gradually introduced in the first volume. However, if you want to improvise, be sure to do all the exercises! After all, jazz improvisation is what this course is all about.
If you are in the Platinum program, make sure you take advantage of the “one on one” lessons no later after covering the first couple of modules. As a matter of fact, I recommend that anyone who is not already an intermediate jazz player try to take at least one lesson with me at this point. I yet have to meet a jazz beginner that has not misunderstood several portions of the initial theory and exercises in the course. And most of these are great classical and rock guitarists I’m talking about. This is to be expected. I myself wasted years trying to “reinvent the wheel” on my own when transitioning from being a rock-blues player. That is, until I found a great mentor. We need all the help we can get.And regardless of what some You Tubers might say, jazz is not easy to learn! Just some food for thought… 🙂
Dear Richie,
thank you very much for your quick response.
At the moment, I am working through the lesson structure and, alongside the jazz blues form, I am also studying the jazz standard Autumn Leaves. I fully agree with you that working with a mentor is essential, and I am truly looking forward to the one-on-one lessons with you.
I feel that I have already collected many individual puzzle pieces, but I am not yet entirely sure how they all fit together. This is precisely why I am so excited about our first online meeting and the opportunity to gain a clearer sense of direction.
As I understand it, as a Platinum member I should reach out to you via the contact form. I was thinking that the beginning of the new year would be an ideal time to do so—once the trial period has ended and I have completed at least the first module. From there, I assume you would schedule the subsequent sessions accordingly.
If this sounds right to you, then we will speak in the new year. I am very much looking forward to it.
Until then, I wish you a wonderful turn of the year and send my best regards.
Kind regards,
Tony
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