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I was looking for a way to “see” the changes and realized a useful strategy (for me). This issue came up when reading the explanation in the book:
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* When transitioning from the I7 to the IV7, the «3» resolves 1/2 step down to the «b7»
* When transitioning from the I7 to the IV7, the «b7» resolves 1/2 step down to the «3»
* When transitioning from the I7 to the V7, the «3» moves 1/2 step up to the «b7»
* When transitioning from the I7 to the V7, the «b7» moves 1/2 step up to the «3»
”Although I can picture the movement, I was dissatisfied that there was not an analytical explanation. I think this has to do with changing reference frames, whereby when we move between chords, the new chord of the moment becomes the root.
Instead, let’s keep the I7 frame of reference for a bit longer. Now we can label the scale notes for the IV7, I7, and V7 chords:
IV7 = 4 6 1 b3
I7 = 1 3 5 b7
V7 = 5 7 2 4These degrees are the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, respectively and work in all keys.
Knowing the inner scale degrees, it is clear that the 6 and b7 is a half step, and shows how the <<3>> of IV7 moves a half step up to the <<b7>> of IV. The other movements can be analyzed in the same way.
Moreover, I think viewing in the reference frame of the I7 chord provide opportunities to learn the scale patterns, where the other note degrees are located.
For completeness, here are the minor chords:
ii7 = 2 4 6 1
vi7 = 6 1 3 5
iii7 = 3 5 7 2and half dim: m7b5 = 7 2 4 6
Khai
Khai,
With all due respect, your perspective defeats the purpose of what we are trying to accomplish. We need to learn and identify the intervals that make up the different chords for what they are in relation to their true root and not from the perspective or reference point of the I chord. This will be explained and become a lot clearer by the time you reach module 3. When you attempt to understand arpeggios and their harmonic & non-harmonic tones your perspective will not work. This is crucial in order to understand which chord tones you can target with approach tones when improvising.
You were on the right track when you said, “when we move between chords, the new chord of the moment becomes the root”. That is the proper frame of reference to adopt!
Hi Richie,
Just to clarify, the perspective outlined in the book, where the root is taken from the chord of the moment, is the one I have been using for as long as I can remember and it’s the system I used to learn intervals. I am fairly comfortable with seeing 7th chord shapes as root, 3rd, 5th and 7th.
My view is that one perspective does not meet every requirement, and I illustrate how staying within the I chord helps see relations that may be difficult from another perspective…perhaps this is because that perspective is new to me. I find this perspective helpful for finding nearest notes between chords. I am curious why this view would not work in module 3, but if it doesn’t.. I’ll just switch back to viewing the root on the chord of the moment!
Another perspective I hear many people use is seeing the note names, instead of interval degrees. I use this view sometimes to validate where I am on the fretboard, but I don’t use this view often.
I suppose there’s no harm in see the fretboard from multiple angles and moving freely between them.
That said, I would like to say I’ve found your instruction very valuable and I’m continuing the lessons.Best regards,
KhaiKhai,
Viewing the fretboard from multiple angles is a good thing as long as you know when and what to use each perspective for. In your case, you sound like you are a more advanced player and are comfortable enough with theory to switch perspectives as needed. This is a good thing. However, there are many that are not and are easily confused. So for the sake of them I have to recommend what views to adopt and not adopt, at least from my 35 years of teaching jazz improv. After all, that is why they are taking this course.
The bottom line is that you can view the intervallic make up of all chords from the perspective of the I chord, but for practical purposes, you need to know when you are playing the true intervals of that given chord in order to understand their harmonic function and construct coherent lines (eg. not resolve to “avoid notes”). How can we understand chord-scale theory, do the bebop calisthenics, use intervallic script, or work out the rhythm templates from the perspective you propose? If I understand what you are proposing, this would entail that we revise and change every interval to be viewed as if the I chord were always the root for all chords in the progression… If this is not what you are talking about and I am misunderstanding the practical application you are suggesting, please correct me.
That is an interesting way to look at the numbering of the tones when changing chords.
The reason it doesn’t really help me in the grand scheme of things is because whatever chord you change to it is crucial to know what position that note is in the new chord scale. By knowing if it is a 3rd or a b7 alters how you approach it or enclose it and adjustment can be made if you are in a dorian, ionian, locrian, etc… If you think of it relative to the chord you came from it loses its context and I not sure if I am playing a chord tone, an extension, or an avoid note.
That is an interesting way to look at the numbering of the tones when changing chords.
The reason it doesn’t really help me in the grand scheme of things is because whatever chord you change to it is crucial to know what position that note is in the new chord scale. By knowing if it is a 3rd or a b7 alters how you approach it or enclose it and adjustment can be made if you are in a dorian, ionian, locrian, etc… If you think of it relative to the chord you came from it loses its context and I not sure if I am playing a chord tone, an extension, or an avoid note.
>> How can we understand chord-scale theory, do the bebop calisthenics, use intervallic script, or work out the rhythm templates from the perspective you propose?
I agree with you that my perspective would not be suitable for the cases you mentioned. But I don’t think these are all the cases that must be considered. My problem is being able to track where I am on the fretboard and being able to navigate to other chords. For example, I mentally tell myself that I’m on the 1,3,5,7, but then I don’t know how to navigate to another chord.
>> If I understand what you are proposing, this would entail that we revise and change every interval to be viewed as if the I chord were always the root for all chords in the progression
I would not change anything from your system (as far as I have gone into module 1). I think the persepctive of chord of the moment works perfectly for viewing the single chord tones in isolation. I don’t quite know how to extend the view to progressions yet; as I wrote, it’s not immediately obvious to me viewing shapes will make me notice that the 3rd of the IV7 is a half step away from the 7th of the I7. It’s easier to rationalize with numbers.
I think part of my deficiency has to do with inexperience in playing as well as just beginning your system.
Here’s another illustration where I think shows this view is helpful.
Let’s take the 6th degree, it’s chord relationsips can be:
– the root of the vi7 chord
– the 3rd of the IV7 chord
– the 5th of the ii7 chord
– the 7th of the m7b5 chordWhen I’m on the 6th degree, I can better find my way around because I know the links with several chords, not just chord of the moment.
Khai
Hi Randy,
>> The reason it doesn’t really help me in the grand scheme of things is because whatever chord you change to it is crucial to know what position that note is in the new chord scale.
No doubt. I guess I’m saying it’s necessary to know the position within the chord degree but also the position within the key. That’s why it seems cheap (to me) to memorize the degrees for each of the scale chords, something I had not bothered to do in the past.
Khai
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